I find this all very interesting! Thank you for presenting the interesting contrasts and your thorough observations.
I was not familiar with the concept of lingam. The first thing I thought of was its similarity to ‘lingers’ as a word, encouraging prolonged contemplation, and the presence of the thing itself lingering low to the ground. I can honestly say I do not quite get ‘the capture of fluids’ trough which to me looks like a yoni, as being anything but the compliment to the other. Then the thought of capturing fluids… well I think you get where I am on this one.
Needless to say, my overall sense of Hindu deities and worship observes a greater sense snd identification with sex, the sexes, inclusion of the two forces in a balancing act appearing much less patriarchal than Christianity. Though culturally I am aware of caste and the most likely very designated roles of the sexes, and don’t doubt the power of that lingam thrust is, for a moment, not always the last word when it comes to hierarchy.
There is a sense of elevation I believe the Christian art of the High Renaissance strives toward unlike that achieved in most other. Rogue’s recent posts exploring mosaic, the art of the apse, the evolution of human v mathematic representation in subject all brought together a kind of wave for me. A sin/cosin of the periods moving toward more conservative rigorous patriarchal representation and then away from it. A pendulum swings over the centuries shifting human relationship to the ‘Divine’ as needed. We also saw some distinct relationships to politics and policy, if you knew what to look for. The council of Nicaea in 325 effectively nullifying what was left of any pagan ritual left in consideration of consolidation, also turning Christ into a form of non-man while adding the storyline Mary must be a virgin because Jesus was begotten, not ‘made.’
As I listened to her (they require listening considering the length) I could hear the schism occur in the art as well. From there, humanity was removed and dictate reigned. All this to say that politics and policy ordained what we perceive as the goals of the art you flinchingly respond to. Not force, nor nature, nor humanity.
Your distaste for doctrine is well founded. The organic nature by which Hinduism and its representational practices have evolved over time is in its way, more attractive in spirit, while the extraordinary achievements in representational art backed by tremendous monies is quite astounding as visual achievement. Spiritually, I lay in the realm of rose windows if I must loiter in cathedrals. There, for me, lies the true spirit 😉
I think you're entirely correct about the yoni being the compliment to the lingam, as the wikipedia definition says, 'The lingam-yoni iconography symbolizes the merging of microcosmos and macrocosmos, the divine eternal process of creation and regeneration, and the union of the feminine and the masculine that recreates all of existence'. I can't comment on the capture of fluids, which seems to be a practical thing to do with the nature of how the objects are used in ritual, with whatever meaning for participants... The role/meaning/presence of sex in Indian images is a big topic, that sometimes I feel tempted to try to unpick a little, but mostly feel somewhat daunted by. I was a bit taken aback by your reference to 'sex' and wondered why, and then I thought perhaps because (and I would need to look into this properly) it might be referred to more often in Indian texts as 'kama' which means love. Luscious engagement in acts of love is officially part of human life, whether in texts, miniature paintings, plays, temple sculptures etc; and then there's the merging of pining for the lover with pining for/devotion to God, and historical discussions about the origins of curvaceous figures/female genitalia etc being with ancient goddess practices. It's a massive topic and I'm not qualified to talk about it as an outsider, though it does tempt me to try to write about sometimes..
I struggle with many aspects of Christianity as you can see. My current horror is with the painting in Tamara's post the other day which included a painting of St Margaret of Cortona swooning in ecstasy, being supported by some half-naked, youthful angels, while the huge muscly body of Christ looms over her on a cloud (supported by naked boys, only one of whom appears to be an angel), 'showing her his stigmata'. I'm thinking about researching a piece on religious ecstasy but I'm not sure I can face it!
Thanks so much for reading and engaging, and for all your interesting comments.
It’s a bold place we go, certainly. Trying to make sense of it for ourselves. Teachers really what art is, and why can’t that also be what religion is? A system of symbols with a stated meaning still gathers meaning for our own context. We add our mnemonic value, storytelling, way to carry it with us.
I love your redirecting of the physicality of what I saw toward a firm of union. I think that is what o was missing from it, having less knowledge of the culture, but also in how to process what I was seeing. One thing is for certain, there is nothing equivalent in the Catholic religion. I have always had issues with the ‘ecstasy’ as text of any of it. If Mary is a virgin there was no sex. If a saint is looking ecstatic I have to assume there’s self pleasuring going on. It’s all twisted. This because there is nothing in the texts of the kind of disembodied love we are supposed to actually comprehend. As you infer and I will finish the thought: Lots of bodies aloft overhead on a ceiling does not incite passion. It insights fear. Awe, yes. Intimidation? Totally. And that is the whole point.
So I’ll take the lingam/yoni balance any day. Thanks for a completely new angle on religion and a very discerning critical eye.
I find this all very interesting! Thank you for presenting the interesting contrasts and your thorough observations.
I was not familiar with the concept of lingam. The first thing I thought of was its similarity to ‘lingers’ as a word, encouraging prolonged contemplation, and the presence of the thing itself lingering low to the ground. I can honestly say I do not quite get ‘the capture of fluids’ trough which to me looks like a yoni, as being anything but the compliment to the other. Then the thought of capturing fluids… well I think you get where I am on this one.
Needless to say, my overall sense of Hindu deities and worship observes a greater sense snd identification with sex, the sexes, inclusion of the two forces in a balancing act appearing much less patriarchal than Christianity. Though culturally I am aware of caste and the most likely very designated roles of the sexes, and don’t doubt the power of that lingam thrust is, for a moment, not always the last word when it comes to hierarchy.
There is a sense of elevation I believe the Christian art of the High Renaissance strives toward unlike that achieved in most other. Rogue’s recent posts exploring mosaic, the art of the apse, the evolution of human v mathematic representation in subject all brought together a kind of wave for me. A sin/cosin of the periods moving toward more conservative rigorous patriarchal representation and then away from it. A pendulum swings over the centuries shifting human relationship to the ‘Divine’ as needed. We also saw some distinct relationships to politics and policy, if you knew what to look for. The council of Nicaea in 325 effectively nullifying what was left of any pagan ritual left in consideration of consolidation, also turning Christ into a form of non-man while adding the storyline Mary must be a virgin because Jesus was begotten, not ‘made.’
As I listened to her (they require listening considering the length) I could hear the schism occur in the art as well. From there, humanity was removed and dictate reigned. All this to say that politics and policy ordained what we perceive as the goals of the art you flinchingly respond to. Not force, nor nature, nor humanity.
Your distaste for doctrine is well founded. The organic nature by which Hinduism and its representational practices have evolved over time is in its way, more attractive in spirit, while the extraordinary achievements in representational art backed by tremendous monies is quite astounding as visual achievement. Spiritually, I lay in the realm of rose windows if I must loiter in cathedrals. There, for me, lies the true spirit 😉
I think you're entirely correct about the yoni being the compliment to the lingam, as the wikipedia definition says, 'The lingam-yoni iconography symbolizes the merging of microcosmos and macrocosmos, the divine eternal process of creation and regeneration, and the union of the feminine and the masculine that recreates all of existence'. I can't comment on the capture of fluids, which seems to be a practical thing to do with the nature of how the objects are used in ritual, with whatever meaning for participants... The role/meaning/presence of sex in Indian images is a big topic, that sometimes I feel tempted to try to unpick a little, but mostly feel somewhat daunted by. I was a bit taken aback by your reference to 'sex' and wondered why, and then I thought perhaps because (and I would need to look into this properly) it might be referred to more often in Indian texts as 'kama' which means love. Luscious engagement in acts of love is officially part of human life, whether in texts, miniature paintings, plays, temple sculptures etc; and then there's the merging of pining for the lover with pining for/devotion to God, and historical discussions about the origins of curvaceous figures/female genitalia etc being with ancient goddess practices. It's a massive topic and I'm not qualified to talk about it as an outsider, though it does tempt me to try to write about sometimes..
I struggle with many aspects of Christianity as you can see. My current horror is with the painting in Tamara's post the other day which included a painting of St Margaret of Cortona swooning in ecstasy, being supported by some half-naked, youthful angels, while the huge muscly body of Christ looms over her on a cloud (supported by naked boys, only one of whom appears to be an angel), 'showing her his stigmata'. I'm thinking about researching a piece on religious ecstasy but I'm not sure I can face it!
Thanks so much for reading and engaging, and for all your interesting comments.
It’s a bold place we go, certainly. Trying to make sense of it for ourselves. Teachers really what art is, and why can’t that also be what religion is? A system of symbols with a stated meaning still gathers meaning for our own context. We add our mnemonic value, storytelling, way to carry it with us.
I love your redirecting of the physicality of what I saw toward a firm of union. I think that is what o was missing from it, having less knowledge of the culture, but also in how to process what I was seeing. One thing is for certain, there is nothing equivalent in the Catholic religion. I have always had issues with the ‘ecstasy’ as text of any of it. If Mary is a virgin there was no sex. If a saint is looking ecstatic I have to assume there’s self pleasuring going on. It’s all twisted. This because there is nothing in the texts of the kind of disembodied love we are supposed to actually comprehend. As you infer and I will finish the thought: Lots of bodies aloft overhead on a ceiling does not incite passion. It insights fear. Awe, yes. Intimidation? Totally. And that is the whole point.
So I’ll take the lingam/yoni balance any day. Thanks for a completely new angle on religion and a very discerning critical eye.